THE kathy macy interview

Do the Liberal Democrats have a fair deal for disabled people or do they fail to make a splash? With Katharine Macy

Katharine Macy is 26 years old one of the Gen Z candidates at the general election. Standing in Colne Valley as one of the six candidates to be the local MP standing against candidates from Labour, Conservatives, Reform, Yorkshire Party and the Green Party of England and Wales. Kathy is the candidate for the Liberal Democrat’s. F or those of you who want a bit of information about this specific constituency it is in the west of Yorkshire bordering greater Manchester a constituency that has been previously represented by the Liberal Party 37 years ago. Before the merger of the Liberal Party with the Social Democrats. Since then the seat has been a conservative and labour swing seat with the incumbent Jason McCartney who represented the seat from 2010 who stood as the local MP from seven years until the former Labour MP and member Thelma Walker won the seat of the conservatives in 2017 with McCartney reclaiming the seat two years later and stands to recentest the seat yet again.

Macy is soon to be graduated PhD student which is on hold for the general election. researching autism in the Upper Paleolithic which is colloquially known as the Stone Age.

The Interview Script

Kathy Macy: have some expertise there. I have a job as the Diversity, Equality and Inclusion Coordinator at the University of West England. And I've been politically active all my life, but definitely my entire adult life. About eight years now.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Another reason to get you on this podcast is to talk about some of the political things you're involved with.

Research on Autism in the Stone Age

But also, since you mentioned it, and it sounds like a very fascinating thing, can you tell me a bit about, the work you've been doing in the Stone Age of Autism, understanding the history of Autism in the Stone Age era?

Kathy Macy (they/them): Of course I can. As a sort of very quick whistle stop tour, my PhD acknowledged that the genetics associated with autism, and since I'm talking to a disabled audience and a potential neurodivergent audience, I will acknowledge that I am personally uncomfortable with continuing genetic research into autism.

But if the research is there but the genetics associated have been found not just in chimpanzees, but Japanese macaques and behavioral studies done, especially on macaques, because they've been less about that monkey doesn't get on with the others and more about actual autistic behaviors. Suggests that the potential for autism goes back for 30 million years in our evolution.

So that's when our last common ancestor with macaques was. And at that point, a lot of what I just do, have been doing is re evaluating evidence and just suggesting What if autistic people did exist and how would they have contributed to society? I was doing a survey that compared neurotypical and or non autistic for those of you not up to date with your neurodivergent linguae.

And autistic individuals, and we found that autistic people have a far greater relationship with objects, for example. And this could explain so much in the archaeological record. We've also found that the way that autistic people paint and do creative art and things is quite different. Beautiful and makes sense, but different.

The Importance of Neurodiversity

I've really pushed my PhD to try and highlight that neurodiversity is just as important as any other type of diversity. We need diversity of thought, we need diversity of cognition. And at the moment, we've built a society where neurodivergent people aren't allowed to fit. A lot of us suffer in many ways, simply because of who we are.

And it's like saying I'm quite pale. I'm blonde. I've got very pale skin. And that evolved for a reason. It evolved because my ancestors decided they would go as far north as possible and go somewhere where the sun didn't shine as much. So I needed my ancestors to develop paler skin to get more vitamin D.

On a really sunny day, I burn and it's painful. Even in the UK, let alone if I go anywhere further south. And I see autism a bit like that. In some scenarios, it is a hugely useful thing. In others, yes, I have cried because my teaspoon was the wrong size or feel or shape and I was very stressed that day.

But it's just about viewing it as a difference that's both good and bad, and not something to be scared of. Yeah, that's the research I've been doing, if that makes sense.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Because it's autism can be seen as a both a disability and a difference at the same time, and I think that's what he was trying to convey.

And, yeah, it's I can see, how important it is, or like, how, like, How helpful it could be to, look back at autism as I said, but right back to, the dawn of humanity and all that. Because, as I said, it's not so much about the genetics and the causes, but actually looking at the history of autism and understand that, because it's only in the last hundred years, really, that people have been getting diagnosed.

as being autistic. But I actually understand how that looked like through history because it's only now that we really got the information to identify autism and other neurodivergent conditions.

Kathy Macy (they/them): Yeah, definitely. And I personally think to suggest that autism is not a disability, certainly on a wider scope, every individual is able to define and explore their own personal diagnosis or self diagnosis, if that is the case.

Say autism has no disabling qualities in the modern environment, I think is very dangerous. But it could potentially not be disabling if the environment supported it in a way that I'm also physically disabled. I, can't walk for 20 minutes, and that's not something that an environment can change. We can make it easier for me.

We can make it where there's environmentally friendly options for me to get taxis and support me in using bus services and reduce the judgment of using buses for a short amount of time. All these different things, sunflower lanyards, etc. But It will always hurt and it will always be a struggle, but in a society that fully functions, I believe that autism would just be a similar to a personality trait treated in the same way introverts and extroverts are but right now it is disabling and for many autistic people debilitatingly and we need to change that.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah. And, like in terms of autistic people who got varying di different levels of sports needs because, there's also definitions of sometimes people can be diagnosed from level one to feel, but do you think in terms of with the communication, some sensory tolerances.

That can be quite high on a person. Do you think that, in some aspects, that even in a a world where it's optimum to be inclusive? of autistic people, that there could still be some disabling aspects and that may be a yeah, I understand your perspective, but I guess do you understand that some people might not agree with that and think that regardless of how inclusive things would be in society that autism still could be seen as a disability.

Kathy Macy (they/them): Oh, definitely. I think personally the beauty of studying something that I have is the ability to disagree and have debates and acknowledge that autism means different things to different people. I personally suspect that autism and ADHD are the same genetic thing just presenting differently.

I don't really have any evidence of that. That's just a personal theory. So obviously people are going to disagree with me on that. And it's really exciting that we can. I do, however, think that, again, sort of communication, we've found that autistic people understand other autistic people, and neurotypical people understand neurotypical people.

The issue doesn't lie with the individual autistic person not being able to communicate with everyone. The issue lies with different types of people not communicating with each other. And we can see this replicated In so many ways, cultural ways where European populations might struggle communicating with American populations because we've worked out how to communicate with each other, but not the other ones, etc.

So a lot of it is about taking the labels or the blame from autistic people and pushing equal amounts of, we all need to make a little bit of an effort. But, autistic people can make sure to make a few. bit of eye contact to make the neurotypical person more comfortable. But then the neurotypical person needs to remember that if you talk about a plan in front of me, I need to be directly invited, because why would I assume that I need to go with you?

And obviously some people, the eye contact thing will not be the thing that they can compromise on. That's too uncomfortable for them. But it, to me, so much of this, and to bring the politics into it, life is about compromise. I sometimes feel that if everyone was a little bit unhappy, we've probably reached the right solution.

Because we should be able to compromise and work together. Autistic people and neurotypical people and any other forms of neurodiversity, ADHD, dyspraxic, bipolar, schizophrenic, we should all be able to respect each other's differences. and work with them, and find the strengths that come from those differences.

We don't need to choose the main group of people and go, everyone needs to be like this, in my opinion anyway.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and I'll just say that you find the politics linked in with this, but as you said, you are autistic and a divergent yourself, but how in terms of Your own personal story of being neurodivergent and plus your own personal story of, being political.

The Importance of Neurodiversity & Political Involvement and Advocacy

What is your own personal story of being neurodivergent and how has politics, linked in with that?

Kathy Macy (they/them): I was very lucky. My mother knew I was autistic from a very young age. She said that she always thought, and then she came home or we came home and I put all my toys in a circle, sat in the middle, and I recited every single thing I had heard that day like a tape recorder.

Obviously what I was trying to do was play school, but I was doing it in an autistic way or a me way. And then we started to have trouble when I hit about 10 with a teacher, and she thought this is where I get a diagnosis, so that we have, she always referred to the diagnosis as a tool, and we have the tool in the toolbox, and when it's appropriate, we bring it out, and we use it.

So I grew up from a very young age, mostly understanding this and what autism was the NHS then did lose my diagnosis, so I had to go through another diagnosis at the age of 16, which was in a way really useful because when you're 10 and when you're 16, your understanding of how the world works is very different.

And I've always felt very strongly that I'm just trying my best. But I've also felt really strongly that I want to change the world. And when you're five you think changing the world means I'm gonna cure cancer, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be famous. And then I realized that changing the world can be Changing one person's life and seeing the butterfly effects from that, or not even changing a life.

Just giving someone the confidence or giving someone the boost that means that they can go out and do that to someone else. And if you do it to two people and they do it to two people and they do it to two people, the world is better and the world has changed. And for me, that's what politics is. And being disabled.

In my opinion, adds an even greater strength to that because I have an empathy that a lot of other disabled people don't not disabled people. Apologies. I have an empathy that a lot of other people don't have because I know what it's like to have a lot of the basics that I took for granted taken away from me.

I know what it's like to go from running every other day, not having to think about if I'm able to go and get my shopping. Not having to think about, how am I going to get to this location? To then suddenly having to think about everything. Will I be in too much pain? Will I be able to do this? And being autistic from the get go, I had a vague understanding of this.

And I'm very grateful actually that if I had to become physically disabled, at the very least, I've been able to develop an even greater understanding of the disabled community as someone in a very privileged position, as an autistic person from a middle class family that thrives in academia.

So I'm trying to use the two to work together. And give voices to people that wouldn't automatically have voices. And make people realise that disabled people have value. We have a voice and we can use it. So many, the percentage wise, something like 30 percent of disabled people vote when we make up 20 percent of the population.

And there's so many reasons why. And I think a lot of it is being disillusioned, and a lot of it is being patronised. When you're disabled, I had someone offer to tie my shoelace the other week. That's weird. If an acquaintance offered to tie my shoelace, I might be a bit like, oh actually that'd be really useful.

But stopping someone in the street to go, would you like me to tie your shoelace? I'm not five years old. I am a 26 year old adult and I'm able to do things. Sometimes I'll need to go, okay I need to sit down to do this. So I'm going to keep going and just make sure I don't trip.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah.

Kathy Macy (they/them): People forget

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): that.

Sorry. Yeah. And as you said, that kind of sums up what has made you interested in terms of being, active as a disabled person within politics. But what made you decide you want to actually be involved in politics? Because, as I said, even with all that, you might have ended up down a different route altogether.

But you're somebody who got into the more mainstream, traditional means of doing politics. So why, But did you lean into the kind of mainstream party political politics?

Liberalism and Personal Politics

Kathy Macy (they/them): I would argue a lot of people ask me why I bother being in a smaller party. So am I really in mainstream politics?

Although I do take your point. We are, I am one of the three biggest parties and it's because I'm making a difference here. My grandparents, were both liberals back when they were just the liberals. So I've always been around party politics. And again, I think that's a I wouldn't necessarily call it a privilege, but certainly a role of my upbringing, and I don't think there's many certain groups of people whose grandparents were involved for them to be able to go, this is an option for me.

So I certainly have that going for me. I've had points where I've questioned what the Liberal Democrats were doing, but then I remember I make a difference here, and I make a good difference. I wrote the unpaid young carer and young adult carer policy motion. In 2018, and it was taken to our federal party in 2019.

In 2024, this morning, I sat and watched Ed Davey say carers are at the heart of our manifesto. And I started the conversation in the Liberal Democrats about that. I'm a Lib Dem, and I'm doing mainstream politics. in the hopes that I can keep changing and keep influencing. I can hold my party accountable and tell them that we need to elect more disabled people as councillors and as MPs and all across the political spectrum in Wales and in Scotland and in the London Assembly.

I can tell people and talk to people and say, Hey! We need to consider this, and they have done. I had a meeting about our manifesto and I told them, Disabled people need to be throughout it all. And they are. We are being considered when we're so rarely remembered. Politics is about making connections, which is partly why it's so difficult for a lot of disabled people, especially autistic people, to do.

I'm face blind, and It's difficult. People will come up to me, and I don't remember who they are, but if you're able to realize who they are and remember them, they feel special. And I feel really bad about that, and it's certainly a bit of a hindrance. But, when I do know someone, I can spot them across the room, because I've worked out how to tell how someone holds themselves.

Is it a hindrance, or do I just need to redevelop my skill set to move away from a neurotypical mindset? And above all, politics is about knowing who you need to go to, and it's taking a while for me to learn that. But I'm getting there, and I'm not going to throw it away. Not when I'm talking to people who are making an actual change, who are changing the laws, such as the Care Leave Act in 2023, that Wendy Chamberlain, one of our Liberal Democrat MPs for North East Fife, helped to champion, and I got to advise a little bit on.

Obviously not all carers are disabled, but carers are disproportionately more likely to be disabled. And if you help a carer, you're usually helping a disabled person. I do want to see more disabled specific policies. But again, because I know how the party works, I've been able to amend multiple policies across multiple conferences to make sure we're including things such as expecting all new transport links to have wheelchair services.

to make sure that schools are educated in spotting and diagnosing autistic individuals, and when people need extra support, regardless of whether they can get that diagnosis paper. I'm in the LDEMs and engaged in mainstream party politics because I genuinely believe I'm able to make a difference through it.

And you know what? I think I am.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and I think, like some people may be , you know why, you know I said, like you grew up in a family where you were exposed to liberal politics from your grandparents, like autistic and were divergent people, we may tend to question things a bit more and not always follow in the footsteps of relatives.

And when it's something as important as politics or even getting involved within a political party, I encourage such a person to actually think, what are my politics and why am I getting involved? In the political party. So why did you choose a party that is liberal in terms of, like, why liberalism is?

It's something that you question very, like, how could also, lean towards socialists? Beliefs, or even conservative beliefs, because I know, when people are young, like you're still formative, developing your ideas and your own principles. So it can take a lot of time to work that out, and also a lot to do see it.

Some people who are, having disability politics leaning towards more of a, further left wing or socialist leaning. So what attracted you to liberalism?

Kathy Macy (they/them): If I had to define my politics, I would define them by saying I am liberal first and foremost. I personally don't think the right to left spectrum fits.

I especially don't think it fits a UK politics. political system. I also consider myself very left wing. But at the core, I believe that everyone deserves the right to education and the right to their own choices. They don't deserve the ability to harm anyone else or hurt anyone else, but that's where the education comes in.

If you're not harming anyone else and you're just getting on with your life, You should be allowed to make your choices. And that's why I picked the liberal Democrats because liberalism is absolutely at the core of my values. As an autistic person, I remember all of those social lessons that you pick up.

And the core one was always do as you would be done by. Treat others how you want them to treat you. I smile at cashiers and I ask them how they're doing when I get to the checkout. And if I'm in London, I get a shocked look, but most of the time I get a, Oh yeah, I'm good. How are you? And some people will then confide you're the first person that's asked how I am today, but I want to live in a world where people do say, how are you?

And genuinely want to hear the answer. And for me, liberalism can provide that. I personally also think that a far left perspective is a poten is a very relevant thing for liberalism. In the same way that we have some quite right wing liberals, and we might disagree on some things, especially around things like tax and potentially the way we should do the army, et cetera.

But our core values are about those freedoms once you are no longer harming anyone. And I don't think that should be that shocking or that difficult to wrap your head around. I personally think a lot of people in this country are liberals, but they're not given that as an option because of the political system we have in the UK.

So as an autistic person I've very much struggled with the things that things are black and white, and I've taught myself to acknowledge the grey to the point it annoys some of my friends sometimes, and I'll bring up the grey area when actually they just want me to be sympathetic or something and they don't want to think about the what ifs.

My grey is my new black and white where I go, oh, but we don't know all of the things now, and it can be very annoying for some people. But recognizing that there is more than either blue or red. There's more than the conservatives or labor, especially in the current circumstances. Another thing that really attracts me, especially to the Lib Dems and liberalism, is we are standing up for trans rights.

Could we be doing more? Possibly. Are we doing better than any other party? Definitely. My research and my experience tells me that neurodivergent people and disabled people in general are more likely to identify in some form of queer or LGBT I identify as agender. I know you are also, I believe, non binary, or certainly that we know you use they them pronouns.

And my research showed, I didn't ask if someone was trans, but I did offer all of the gender options, and autistic people in my research were disproportionately more likely to identify outside the gender binary. And that's without taking binary trans people into account. The Liberal Democrats aren't perfect, but they are striving to be better, especially on things like intersectionality.

And for me, my identity as being agender, my identity as being autistic, my identity as being pansexual or bisexual my identity as being a physically disabled person all overlap. I would probably be better with the pain if I wasn't getting sensory overload, for example, at the same time. And that's what liberalism is to me.

It's about freedom to be yourself, and it's about standing up to make sure everyone has that freedom to be who they want to be as much as they can be, whilst acknowledging that tolerance of intolerance causes intolerance.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and it seems like you studied a lot, in terms of the ideology and, like the politics of like liberalism.

But, when he was growing up, is it something that you studied politics, when you were in A level or, comprehensive schools? And what has been your education like on? Across the, political spectrum in terms of did you ever, Preston, whether you had, have a political belief, so how did you, like in terms of looking at what, like you were exposed to and so was always that you were definitely liberal or did you ever, pestering yourself in other ways or sort.

Kathy Macy (they/them): So I've never actually studied politics, which always surprises everyone. And when you put me in a room full of other liberal Democrats, there's a lot I don't know because I don't really care about politics. I care about people. But the way I help people is through politics, if that makes sense. And I, the only reasons I've questioned whether or not I belong in the Liberal Democrats is less about my identity as a Liberal and more about the good that I think I'm able to do.

I had a year or two where I wondered if I could do better in labor and make more differences there, but for the most part certainly until we're able to have a political system where the smaller, more nuanced parties are allowed to thrive and the way the Liberal Democrats are going, I believe they're becoming more and more a party that I am fully behind.

Because we always have things we disagree on. I know that I have some very extreme opinions on certain subjects, and I also know that I'm not always educated on certain subjects. You can't know everything. So I'm always willing to listen and respectfully disagree, or have a quick conversation, or even a debate that remains respectful and doesn't turn into an argument.

But no, for the most part, I feel at home in the liberal Democrats, both personally and politically.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): What are the things that could’ve attracted you to the labour party? And, what dissuaded your from being a labour party member?

Kathy Macy (they/them): When I was considering it it was pretty much mostly because they have far more power, and power does let you make bigger changes. At the moment, a big thing that's stopping me joining is their stance on trans rights, their inability to decide whether they're going to be transphobic or not, to say one thing and then back policies that do other things.

That is an absolute hard line for me. If the Liberal Democrats turned around and began to sell trans people under the bus because they thought it would help them in the blue wall, I would leave. But they won't do that because they know that it's the right thing. I'm invited to Parliament regularly to talk to Ed Davey as a trans person, our lead, Ed Davey is our leader because he knows that things are not good at the moment.

Other things that make me uncomfortable about the Labour Party are the way that they do their politics. In the Lib Dems, we'll have a debate, and we'll disagree, and we'll suggest things in the hall, but then we'll all go to the pub after. Whereas the entrenched labour aspects of the different groups, like Momentum, What does attract me to Labour is their left wing policies.

At the moment I think they're becoming more right wing. I would even dare to say that the manifesto we released today challenges Labour to become far more left wing than I think they will be in this general election. But I am left wing, but I'm a liberal first, which again, is why I don't think I'd be joining Labour for the right reasons.

And I'm not willing to be in a party just because I think it would give me power. I want to be somewhere that's right. And make sure that being right is what gives me the ability to make a change. Not getting the ability to make a change first, because that's where corruption comes in my opinion.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and I was just saying that, one thing that the Liberal Democrats, in your opinion, does that, doesn't see you being a, sees the Liberal Democrats as more left wing, what were you what do you think are the things that you see the Liberal Democrats as being more left wing to Labour at the minute?

And what, in terms of like, how people, may think of liberalism, and you might not think of liberalism as being left wing, and I know so, on different social media platforms, love, people entirely arguing you, with you, in Christon's extreme opinion of liberalism isn't, left wing politics.

What is your answer to how it is, and how your politics is left wing, and what do you think? Thank you. in the manifesto is left wing.

Kathy Macy (they/them): Of course. When people tell me liberalism can't be left wing that's just wrong, to be honest. Liberalism can be right wing, but it can also be left. And, again, I think we really need to move away from this idea of what's right and what's left.

Because People often associate being on the left with progression, but depending on what type of left wing you are, the progression isn't actually there. And liberalism is always about progression. In terms of the manifesto policies, today, Ed Davey said something that made my heart sing. Ed Davey said, The rich should be paying more.

He is a hundred percent right in the manifesto laid out today. It is fully costed. It explains how everything is going to be paid for, and it does not take into account the money that will be saved by investing in these things such as social care, which would project to save several billion from the NHS if invested in properly.

They've done a cautious yes ambitious manifesto. That includes giving tax breaks to lower earners, but taxing the 0. 01%. These are the people that should be being taxed. As Ed Davey said today, the social media giants, and the billionaires, and the multi millionaires. We have been fed a lie that if we just work harder, we will succeed.

It suggests that if you don't succeed, you've not worked hard enough. Everyone I know works hard enough to deserve to succeed, but not all of them do. Most people I know don't know how they'd afford two months rent in a row without a paycheck. That's not okay. And in our manifesto we recognize that. That the average everyday person needs a break, while we actually tackle the economic inequalities in this country.

For more UN videos visit www. un. org And to me, that is one of the most left wing things you can do, to acknowledge that people do not deserve more, especially if it's because of their parents, or relatives, or ancestors. But even if they've been more successful, I'm not, maybe you can go on a slightly nicer holiday, maybe you can afford to, fly on holiday once a year, whereas other people can afford to have a caravan holiday once a year if you've been particularly successful.

But it shouldn't be the difference between not knowing if you can feed your children and being able to get gold leaf on all of your food. And we're recognizing that in the Liberal Democrats, and we're pushing for a manifesto that recognizes the importance of investing in education, investing in healthcare, investing in social care, and making sure everyone has the equal chance to succeed and thrive in this country.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and that, is something very important and significant. And in terms of what some of the questions I'm going to ask you about, is also some of the roles and the things you do within the party. So what, being involved within the party, what are the some of the roles to, and what are the things you do?

been really involved with, and what can people, how can people get involved in certain elements of party politics, and what can they expect if they join a party?

Kathy Macy (they/them): I think every party is different from the conversations I've had on panels about getting young people involved, from my Labour and Conservative and sometimes even Green cohorts.

Joining the Lib Dems, there's so many ways to get involved. We have your local party, which is your geographical closest group. But I am also involved in what we called affiliated organizations. I'm in the Young Liberals, and I'm currently their secretary, having previously been their diversity officer and events officer, and I'm also the chair of the disability organisation.

These are wonderful ways to get involved, especially if you feel a bit intimidated. I'm not going to pretend that every local party is as accessible and aware of disability as I would like, or as aware of how to treat someone in their 20s, but that's what the AOs are for. That's one. both to provide a space for people to engage with and to keep our party, the rest of the party, to account on those specific issues.

And the Young Liberals, Disability group, and the LGBT plus group do a fantastic job. We have a whole group of them, and I wouldn't be able to go through all of them, but there's at least one for every diversity characteristic. And they're all fantastic, led by really amazing volunteers. So I chair the disability group and I won't lie, it's difficult at the moment.

COVID was difficult. I'm sure I don't need to tell why to what is probably a lot of disabled listeners. But for the non disabled listeners we lost a lot of people and the people that we didn't lose lost a lot of energy. Mentally, physically, emotionally. So at the moment I'm trying to build back up and I'm doing that with a mix of things.

making sure we're present internally. We're doing an internal campaign to get people to stand more Liberal Democrat disabled candidates. We're calling it Get a More Diverse Ballot because I thought stand or run could potentially be seen in the poor taste. But we're then doing an external campaign as well.

We want to push to bring benefits in line with inflation. The 10 Christmas bonus would have got you 60 pints of milk when it was introduced. Now it would get you two or three. I've got those wrong. I've got those numbers wrong. The 10 Christmas bonus when initially introduced would currently be worth about 150 in today's money with inflation.

10 is a slap in the face and would barely buy you the vegetables for Christmas dinner. 150 could be the difference between you not having to worry about buying your children or yourself that extra special thing and really would be a Christmas bonus. Not all disabled people are on benefits, and in fact, we were saying today in the manifesto launch, providing a more fair and caring society where disabled people who can work are fully supported to is an incredibly important thing.

We shouldn't be valued by whether or not we work or not, but we should be allowed to if we want to. But ensuring those who are unable to work, for whatever reason, are financially stable, meaning they can either get into work when they wish without risk of losing money or feeling unsafe, or able to live a life that they deserve if they'll never be able to work, is incredibly important to me.

Thank you. They're a little, that's a little bit of an insight into the kind of work that I do. I try to hold the party to account internally while pushing for us to be better externally on disability rights.

Internal and External Campaigns: How do we get equitable representation of disabled people in politics? Challenges as a disabled candidate

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and it's an important thing for any members of political parties, and whether even outside of political parties, to be able to, hold political parties accountable.

And, as you were saying then, campaigning to get a lot more disabled representatives, disabled people, on the ballot and standing for political. for the, within the Liberal Democrats, but this can be the same for every, party, all the other different political parties, or every independent candidates.

Regardless where you are on the political spectrum, it is most definitely important that we have more disabled candidates, for sure. And, have that representative. You've run, so within your campaign, what has been, what do you find are things that have worked and have you been able to make it quite successful for this election?

So what are the things that as a dis disabled person that could make. Standing as a candidate to win, with any type of seat, more accessible and or rather, this 2024 election is looking to get more disabled representatives.

Kathy Macy (they/them): In the last general election, or the last parliamentary cohort five people publicly declared that they were disabled.

I know of a few MPs that are disabled but don't publicly declare it, and I think that's fine. No one is owed to an MP's personal life especially if it doesn't impact on their work that they do for us as their constituency and their country. But it remains, five people were publicly disabled, one of them is standing down, I know at least.

And that's less than 1 percent of MPs. As I've mentioned earlier, 20 percent of the population is disabled. 25, depending on what statistics you look at. 1 percent is simply not good enough. But I don't want to be voted for simply because I am disabled. I'm a very competent individual, if I do say so myself.

I would like to be voted for because I know what it's like to be different. And when you think about it, very few people are the incredibly privileged individual that everyone else seems to think about. Most people are not a man or not white. or not able bodied or abled or not straight or not cis etc.

I could go on. Most people are some form of minority. Class is another one we've not really talked about that I think we should start talking about far more as a society and Move away from that British, all we can't talk about class. I want to be voted for because I want to stand up for everyone. And that includes people that traditionally have been stood up for.

Because they don't deserve to suffer, everyone else deserves to be brought to the same level. Equality is not a piece of cake. It doesn't run out. And I don't intend to let it run out. I want to talk about everything, within my capacity, obviously, as an MP if elected, and if not elected, as a political campaigner.

I want to give a space to be educated about racism as a white person that is trying their best to be an ally. I want to give a space to gay people to tell me what it's like about being monosexual to someone who is bisexual. I want to give a space to other neurodivergent people who have a different experience to me and have different traits or different struggles.

I'm one person and I have my experience, but I'm never going to pretend that I am able to speak for all people from what groups that I identify as. And I like to think that means I would be a good MP because I would listen to my constituents. In terms of disability specifically, I will continue to push for disabled representation, ensuring that SEN support is in as many schools as possible.

I helped to write a Young Liberals policy motion, which we might take to our federal party at one point soon, about SEN education. Ensuring that as many disabled children as possible are able to be in mainstream schools. Not because it saves money, but because it stops them being separated. With the right funding and the right investments, most disabled people are able to live amongst normal, not normal, that is a horrendous phrasing and I'm going to rephrase that, it's been a very long week.

Most disabled people are able to live amongst normal. anyone else that they want to. There will always be exceptions, and I'm not going to pretend that things are black and white. As we've said I've really tried to overcome the black and whiteness of my childhood, but ultimately it's about that. It's about telling disabled people that they are important and if they want to do something they should do it.

And I want to run for parliament, so I will do it. And I hope as many disabled people as they want come and join me.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): As so are you aware of many people you know within, whether it is within the liberal Democrats or within other political parties, are you what awareness of have you got off disabled people running in this general election, coming to be candidates for 2024 to 2029?

Are you, how much are you aware of in terms of people who are openly disabled, who are standing for candidates here?

Kathy Macy (they/them): I know at least two people in my party who are openly disabled. It's important to note that I could probably name about 50 of our candidates out of the 630 that we're standing.

And I don't know every Liberal Democrat. Yeah. But yeah, and actually, I know three. Two of whom are on my executive, and one of whom has been on the executive, so they're very active and proud of their disabled status. A big issue though, I think, is that disclosure. I see it in my work at university, I see it throughout politics.

And when we're looking at our statistics, when we're trying to make sure that our selection and our candidate staff is all going as fairly as possible, disabled people do not disclose they have a disability. And that's an issue. Why is that? There's so many reasons. We need to learn why, as a party, as a culture, and we need to change it.

I personally think. Being judged, experiencing ableism, is a big factor in that. So this is where educating people comes into play. But yeah, to go back to the actual question that you asked, too much of a politician, clearly. I don't know as many as I would like. Whether that's because they're not willing to disclose, whether that's because I don't know them, whether that's because they're not there, I don't know.

But one way or another, I'm gonna change that.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): And how do you hope to change that? How do you hope that people, how more disabled people can be standing for, parliament and actually get elected?

Kathy Macy (they/them): The get elected part we're working on, especially as Liberal Democrats. But to go in order, I initially went for my approval.

Most parties expect you to go through approval to stand. I went for mine because we said we should get more young people running. And I said if I go through the process, I can work the process out and help other people. So I've done that and I'll do that. I also want to then reach out to people that ask her to stand campaign did fantastic things for engagement of women in politics and A similar thing of get disabled people to stand even as a paper candidate because then people will realize Oh the town hall we always do the hustings in isn't wheelchair accessible or Oh, a hustings format like this isn't very accessible for neurodivergent people with auditory processing issues.

Simply putting someone on the ballot paper can go really far to starting this journey. In terms of getting them elected, it's an internal process as well as an external one, especially as a Lib Dem. Right now, I'm unconvinced I would be able to be elected. A whole factor of reasons. But one of them is I can't canvas.

I can't deliver. It's too painful. On a bad day, a five minute walk is painful. On a good day, I can do about twenty. If someone really wants to talk to me, I could get a car, get someone to drop me off. And I would. But Peep, you're expected to do so much more as a candidate. And we need to shift away from that.

Again, if we potentially change the system to something not first past the post and proportional representation, I think that would help diverse candidates who don't live in a seat that they could win in by being the local candidate. And diverse people, disabled people, women, ethnic minorities, are disproportionately held to account on issues like this.

We need a culture change within politics. We need a culture change within this country. And we need people like myself who are willing to lead that charge. I can't do it alone. I won't do it alone. I don't have the skills to do it alone. But I have some of them, and I have some energy, and I'll use it, and I'll find my colleagues, I'll approach my other disabled friends, and I'll go, why don't we run together, and we can help each other out, and we'll see where this goes.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): So I assume then you're not as confident that, you would be elected as, your local MP after selection?

Kathy Macy (they/them): I would be honoured if Cone Valley chose to elect me. Realistically, Liberal Democrats don't win in places we don't campaign heavily in all year round. I was only selected to sit in this seat in January.

We've simply not had the ability to build this up. If I was elected, I would be over the moon and incredibly grateful. And. I would feel a lot of pressure to do my best, both for Cone Valley and also for disabled people and other queer people. But I need to be realistic about getting as many Lib Dems that do care elected.

This morning, I was on my way to the manifesto launch and I got on the tube and looked around and there were a few seats, but none of the disabled seats were free. And the man got up and let me sit down which was, I was grateful for because if you have to walk past people with the stick, et cetera.

And we get off at the same tube station and we start walking the same way and then I realize this can, this person is one of our candidates, our Wimbledon candidate, Paul. And he said, I didn't recognize you, I'm so sorry. And I said, I didn't recognize you either, I'm face blind, that whole conversation happened.

And I want people like that in Parliament, who don't offer me their seat because they know me, but they offer me their seat because they know it's right. And by making sure that as many Lib Dems like that are elected, we can make a difference for disabled people, and we can make sure we get more disabled people in Parliament next time.

And maybe also, make some disabled MPs more confident in telling the public that they are disabled.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and do you think that there are what do you think are the barriers of people not wanting to disclose they are disabled, in terms of, I know some people I've chatted to on a podcast. Just before I've said, it's something that you shouldn't have to, disclose.

It's something that, the accessibility of the comedians should be there with or without a diagnosis. And more accessibility for self diagnosis without needing so much of the medical diagnosis and without having to prove their disability. But in terms of actually being open and speaking about being disabled in terms of politics, as Ian did earlier on in, in terms of Ed Avey and, his manifesto launch.

That him speaking on his, personal experience as a carer has, has had quite a connection with people in terms of their, You know, being quite personal and sharing your own personal story, as is sometimes what people like from a politician. Do you think that, and sometimes it can be seen as maybe beneficial to your own, putting forward your own policies, especially if you're campaigning for something about a disabled policy and campaigning for your constituents in a parliamentary speech or, on a legislative summit.

What do you think are the main barriers to actually disclosing a disability or coming out as disabled within politics?

Kathy Macy (they/them): I think it's difficult because Disabled people don't owe other people their story. Not all disabled people can say, oh yes, no, I'm not disabled, because if you have a visible disability.

But some people can. Disclosing it can be exhausting. I don't know about you, but the amount of times I tell someone I'm autistic, and it comes up quite regularly because of my PhD subject, you don't look it, you don't seem it, you're talking to me, fine. Yeah, and I'm exhausted and I want to go and have a nap.

That conversation can be tiring, especially when you have it every other day. As well as that, people will treat you differently. I once went on a date, and I mentioned being autistic about halfway through, and he started treating me completely differently. It changes how people see you, and when you're running to be a politician and an MP and telling people you can get the job done, people patronise disabled people view us as children that need support, or people that can't do things for themselves.

When actually, we just do things a bit differently most of the time, especially those of us who've decided that we're going to be pig headed enough to run for parliament. We need to change that narrative, and change that. But we also need to be aware that I choose to talk about my personal life. When I taught undergraduates last year, and I told them I was autistic, I had several come up to me at the end and say, I've never met an autistic academic before, which is definitely wrong, but certainly not an out, one that disclosed their autism.

You make me feel like I can actually finish my degree. And that's why I talk about it, because I was a young child once. that had no role models. And if I can be a role model for one person and tell one disabled person that they can do it too, I think it's worth telling everyone my personal life. But no one's entitled to that and it is

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and I think like in terms of, not having people, sometimes, as I said, it's somebody's right to choose how they set their own story and, whatever they want to say about their own disabilities or any part of their identity that isn't obviously visible.

As sometimes on the media you had stories about people being outed. But, in terms of disability, that shouldn't be, like, exposed by anyone but a disabled person. But it does have can have a positive impact. As, there aren't many disabled people in politics.

Voter apathy and political engagement amongst the cohort of the disabled electorate

As, if you aren't, for me there are disabled people in politics, politicians or whatever, you might not be dissuaded to be involved and rather to get actively involved within politics as I think I'm only there often a person who has been openly autistic. As an MP, and I think that was Jared O'Mara, and I think he didn't end up finishing his own his first, parliament term.

And it's something that, you know that representation would actually increase. People, actually stand in, who are autistic, for Parliament. But also, turning out to the, election booths and actually going to vote. As you said earlier on, I think, you said that only 20 percent of disabled people actually go to the ballot.

And then that can have quite a telling story on how disabled people are actively involved in going to the ballot and, voting and getting involved in, like the traditional means of doing politics.

Kathy Macy (they/them): In my opinion, people don't vote for two reasons. One, they're so disillusioned everyone's the same.

Two, they don't have the confidence in themselves that they know enough. I'm a big believer in it's no one's fault that they don't know things. If people try and tell you, say, around pronouns or, Hey, that was a little bit dicey. and you ignore them, then ignorance becomes your fault. But there's no shame in never having approached a situation before and not knowing how to deal with that situation.

Disabled people especially are constantly mocked and constantly put down and there's nothing wrong with how they've responded to that. But by going into schools and explaining how politics works, by funding our education system to the point that we can actually inform people on important things like politics and what their vote does, by parties making their manifestos and policies easier to read and easier to understand, so that it's easier for people to go, Oh, actually, this is the party for me.

We can put that confidence back, not just into disabled people, but a lot of the population doesn't vote. A lot of people are apathetic for whatever reason. I'm a big believer that, and I've said that a lot, there's a lot of things I really bigly believe in. I truly believe that a functioning society is about one where everyone feels empowered.

To vote, to speak up and to trust themselves. And politicians need to do better at enabling that. And I hope I'm trying my best to do that.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah, and I think you're doing a job of it, and it's like something that I've been to address, by starting this kind of series of podcast content reflecting disability politics as one thing that could be said of some disabled people may not go to parliament at a limited point on education.

It's a place. I'm not having the issues represented and discussed in the media or in the media in a, positive sense that a lot of the time, it doesn't always get represented positively, about being disabled a lot and, debated enough and on the topics of, benefits, social care and, the various other things of, that off access and work and all that and there's a lot even though, there's not always, people in politics, politicians being represented in media, but there's lack of, political commentary to those who are disabled.

Actually, again, the representatives now actually represents, the experience of being disabled. And I think, That can, set disabled people out from getting involved in politics or, getting to vote. And, one thing that I think all the parties got, got in this issue to deal with at this election is actually getting people out to the ballot.

That reverts to new changes in voter ID and voter ID laws, but also in terms of how they speak into disabled people and the trust and confidence disabled people have. in those candidates or even politics in general.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): put it as a question, it's in terms of the thing at the minute, is that it seems like a group, like the, thing for most parties, is that it's like some, they have to deal with, a voter app, if you, if that is, but then they would like a voter ID laws, or whether, how like they are speak to disabled people, or like the disabled people's experience of a certain political parties and what is representative of them in mainstream media and how they are represented, how they feel in general about politics, how they think every party's just the same or every partisan's just the same.

Is that something that You're getting awesome about, why some disables people and people may not be, interested in going out to vote. And do you think that is a threat for a lot of parties, like the Liberal Democrats, as well as the others, of course?

Kathy Macy (they/them): Yeah. A lot of people aren't voting because they want someone in at the moment.

They're voting because they want someone, or the Conservatives, out. Our big challenge at the moment, personally, is telling people that actually in 50 or 60 seats, it's not Labour voting it's Lib Dem, voting Lib Dem will get the Tories out. And it's a really heartbreaking situation for anyone, disabled or not, when you're not voting for who you want, you're voting for who you least don't want.

There is a huge amount of voter apathy and It's not okay. We need change. The country is crying out for change. And that's change that the Lib Dems could offer, with getting rid of first past the post, letting people vote with their hearts, be that Liberal or be that Labour, or even Conservative, or Reform UK, or any new party that could crop up under a change of system.

And I think making disabled people be at the heart of that movement. is so powerful. You are so right that disabled people have awful media representation and everyone sees this as token. We're getting there but so slowly. I love Doctor Who and I really enjoyed the scene where Kate was Yelling at the wheelchair user with spina bifida I've seen you walk.

You're a liar. Because so many people say that. The two episodes before people were going on Twitter about how she'd crossed her legs. We need a change, and it is coming, but it's coming too slowly. Especially in politics. Parliament isn't an accessible building. Robert Halfon

[The out-going MP for Harlow who has retired from the house of commons when the election was called who could be succeed by Hannah Ellis from the conservatives and unionist party the party he was elected to represent with a mandate for fourteen years rival candidates include Malcom Featherstone for Reform UK, Christopher John Vince of the Labour Party, Riad Mannon of the Liberal Democrats, Yasmin Gregory of the Green Party of England and Wales and Louis Jasmin Perry of the United Kingdom Independence Party or UKIP for short]

had to sit with the front benches even before he was a front bencher because he couldn't get up the stairs.

The House of Lords is slightly better, but I know multiple times one of our wheelchair members of the House of Lords has been stuck somewhere because she wasn't able to get to where she was needed to get to, despite being the guest of honour. I don't have all the solutions because I don't think one person should have all the solutions, especially not someone that isn't a leader or claiming to be able to make a lot of changes.

But I do have the passion to keep making sure we're thinking of disabled people as we make the changes that we so desperately need.

The issue of tactical voting and the Liberal Democrats’ historical record. And, Can they be trusted after the coalition with the conservative party

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): with the, idea of the selection that a lot of the vote is to get the Tories out, and, but how do you feel as a member of the Liberal Democrats that, a lot of people, that people might be voting for the Liberal Democrats, but not in actually wanting them to be their local representative, or feel that they represent them, but choosing them as if, have somebody off the Liberal Democrats or off the Labour Party or whatever that, just because they aren't the Conservatives and just voting for a change but not convincingly 100 percent for that change.

Kathy Macy (they/them): There will be people that do that. But there are more, in my opinion, Liberal Democrat voters that won't vote Liberal Democrat because they want to get the Tories out. People believe in us. We had such a high percentage of the vote in 2019. If we had a fairer voting system, we would have had 60 MPs. We ended up with 11 because of how unfair the vote system is.

People told the government that we were wanted, but because we didn't win in the right places or get the votes in the right places, we had almost no power in the last parliament. And despite having very little power, we did fantastic things with the power that we did have, such as holding MPs to account by insisting that if there is a criminal investigation against them, they're suspended to help protect many members of the public and workforce in parliament.

It's not perfect, but that's what politics is about, in my opinion. The Tories have voters that they can rely on, and Labour have voters that they expect to get. But for me, politics is about convincing someone that we are the right party. If they don't want to vote for us, it's our job to tell them why we are offering them the best offer that they can have.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah. And, just to that, just to put a different point towards you that, for the first five of the 14 years of the, Conservatives being in power, the Liberal Democrats weren't going to listen to the Conservatives. And that is something that maybe some people would be less incentivised if they checked a tactical voting website to actually vote for the Lib Dems.

And they, or, generally that some people, including disabled people, might not trust the Lib Dems based on some of the policies where that is rolling back on the university things and all. Record government records of austerity, and all that, to anybody who feels disinterested in voting for the Liberal Democrats, or disinterested in voting, looking at, the, years of austerity, what do you say to them?

Kathy Macy (they/them): I say that we of course made mistakes, and every leader since then has acknowledged mistakes were made. However, You just have to look at 2010 to 2015, and post 2015. We fought the Tories every single day, and we haven't stopped. Sometimes we lost, sometimes we won. Sometimes we had to make compromises that, in hindsight, probably weren't the best compromises to make.

I'm always tempted to say I was 12 years old when the coalition was decided. I don't think I had much influence. But we have to acknowledge what the party has done. And I do stand by a lot of what we did. The access fund pupil premium, for example, was something that personally meant I was able to afford my textbooks that I wouldn't have been able to afford for my GCSEs without.

We've been punished, rightly we've grown, we've learned. We're a very different party, and we're ready for a second chance. And in

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): terms of that, and a government record of Liberal Democrats, is that part of the reason why you might be thinking about a party like the Liberal Party, or did that cause any doubts to you about joining the Liberal Democrats?

Kathy Macy (they/them): Not really. Labour were the ones to introduce tuition fees in the first place. I've always seen it, even before I became particularly politically active in the Lib Dems, as slightly more formal graduate tax where I'll either earn a lot and pay it back or I won't earn a lot and I won't pay it back.

My issues have always been around postgraduate education and maintenance loan ensuring that people have enough to live, especially after the cost of living crisis. They're the issues that students deserve us to talk about and the tuition fee discussion in my opinion is really overturning what the important issues for students are, mental health rates and employment rates and making sure that they're able to feed themselves throughout their degree, especially when universities like Oxford don't even let you get a job in term time.

The tuition, the maintenance loan at the moment isn't enough for many people and that's not okay.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): And they talked about a coalition, of course, and, the past coalition, but also went to the vase point, in terms of the future, the, what comes after the general election.

Even though the polls are suggesting that a Labour would win an outright majority, but when the question was raised through, through, the Liberal Democrats, so they kept Go into Ction with a labor party if the labor party fell sort of a majority votes, but speaking hypothetically, of course, how would you feel if it was in a position and that Liberal Democrats could were to go into coalition with the Labour Party?

Kathy Macy (they/them): I personally would like to see us in coalition, not this time, but next time. And I want the thing on the table to be getting rid of First Past the Post. I want to say to whatever party, hopefully Labour from a personal standpoint, needs us to pop them up, we say you will abolish this horrendous system that keeps so many people from being able to be represented.

And that would make me happy. The Liberal Democrats as a party have to vote on whether or not we go into coalition. And I fully intend to get involved in that discussion and use my democratic duties, should it come to that. But I guess we'll just have to see what happens on July 4th.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): Yeah. And I'll try to keep the interview a little bit more wrapped up shortly but, in terms, as I said, with in terms of future co lists and they would be open and, open minded to co listing with Libra.

But would you be of that with if they came up against, again, with the cards off The co cons. If, like I said in the government after this one, after that election, if you said that within that in next term, if you were liberal Democrat, were to go into coalition of party, would you support them if they went into coalition with the conservatives or a party that is more right leaning into liberal Democrats?

Kathy Macy (they/them): It would depend on the deal. I don't want to rule anything out because I don't know what we will, it will look like. If the Conservatives lose the seats that some of them are projected to, to lose, we might be talking about a very different Conservative party in the same way that something could happen to Labour.

And we would be talking about a Labour party that I no longer feel safe being in coalition with. Ultimately, I am one voice. And while I am a candidate, I'm certainly not the defining voice of this election campaign. And I have faith in the Liberal Party to decide what is best, not just for our party, but our country.

Aar Jae Williams (they/them): And in the last two questions, what, firstly what do you hope to see come out of this next election? And secondly, what do you think we should be talking about? in terms of like disability politics in this, like now.

Kathy Macy (they/them): What I want to come out of this election is for the Liberal Democrats to have a firmer hold on our values and where we're going as a party.

I would like to see many more Liberal Democrat MPs elected. There are a few that I do really rather want in Parliament, because I think they would be fantastic Liberal voices. And I think we're going to have some fantastic new faces if things go the way I hope they will. In terms of disability discussion, I think we need to be talking about how we're going to revamp the systems.

How do we make PIP work? How do we stop it being about knowing how to answer questions and make it about what support disabled people need? We need to be talking about how we ensure disabled people have equal access to education. I would love for us to talk about that. equality of marriage for disabled people so that disabled people don't end up financially trapped in a potentially abusive relationship.

There's a lot that we need to be talking about, but right now unfortunately the one word answer is the basics, or two words I suppose. We are not where we should be at all. We need to focus on the basics so we can build up and make this a country that disabled people are proud to live in and feel able to thrive and be exactly who and where they want to be.